Upgrade of Motherboard

[Frank Goebel]

Here I am a Mac user with a PC tower that I only use for BLS and whatever else is needed...internet on that only for web uploads, though I do have anti-virus software on it, and I do grab Windows updates.

It's a 4.5 year-old system a roommate and I put together using a Barebone kit, 550 MHz Cyrix processor (Socket 7?), 256 MB SDR DIMM, and a parallel ATA IDE drive. (The balance of the system is irrelevant here.) I have added a few I/O PCI cards without assistance, replaced the ATX power supply without a hitch...generally speaking, I'm comfortable inside the tower.

For those who have had some work in this area, and given that I would only (likely) continue to use this computer solely for BLS, I'd welcome input on what route I should consider taking. There's no need, I don't think, for a sound card or even any video accelerator, so I suppose having on-board VGA would work fine for me. But, any other options that you have - such as, what processor, and the like. I have done a little on-line shopping and note that 4 USB 2.0 ports are now a norm, as is an IEEE 1394 (what Apple calls FireWire) port, plus Ethernet all on-board...and that some boards don't have a VGA port. (I'm presuming I'd need an additional video card for that?)

Having not purchased RAM in some time, I know I won't find anything other than DDR or DDR-2, and I would also need to know if the clock speed of a DIMM against what a motherboard calls for: Can the speed of a DIMM be higher, or lower, than the motherboard...or must there be a precise match?

There's a reputable online supplier that I intend on using, and they do offer several MoBo/CPU bundles...some offering four DIMM slots, others, two, max 1GB each. Still, I don't want to shop by price alone. Intel and AMD dominate as far as processors are concerned, though I think either would easily run BLS...with a far faster startup, application launch, etc.

I'm very welcome to all input here.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Frank,

there are a lot of online suppliers. I've personally used NewEgg with very good results. I had a bad motherboard a week out of the box and NewEgg was able to replace the board. Drawback was I had to send the bad board before they would send the good board. But wasn't critical.

I've used Gigabyte, Asus and MSI branded boards with very good reliability (in that order of my preference).

They all make versions of the board with everything on board. Usually the onboard video is an Intel Video Adapter. For business purposes, its fine (I use for servers). If you can find one that has either ATI or NVidia (in preference order), all the better.

Most Mobo's have a NIC and USB onboard, so there really isn't any need for additional cards, unless you get a MOBO without onboard video.
For futureproofing (for a while....) PCI Express is the buzzword. Don't bother with AGP unless you just don't care and get a great deal.

With Core Duo out now, you should be able to find a 2.8-3.0 500 series Intel proc for 80-90.

I've tried various AMD's over the years, but I favor Intel. I'm not really a gamer. I do development, photo and video editing. I've just always had better results.

RAM... If you really don't care, then once you get your MOBO, you will have a few choices for RAM in terms of speed. Get something reliable, but you don't need overboard. Kingston Value RAM, Corsair or Patriot have been very reliable and have good warrantees. 256 megs is cutting it really low (with XP) but will work. If you get 512... much much better. Dramatically. To really use XP Pro... 1 Gig.

HD's.... I thought I would never say it... But Seagate's SATA have been very nice and big bang for the buck. Personal experience (and agrevation) with Maxtor's would be the only warning. Western Digital has been good to me as well.

Again... these have been subject to my own findings and experience. I'm not going to get into any harware wars and this is based on what you are asking for.

Lastly... you may want to check the prices with Dell or Gateway. Now adays, you can package a computer pretty cheaply.

Do think about OS's these days. Vista is around the corner... Vista's cool... It's pretty... And it can be a pain in the !@#!@#. However if you are going to build for XP, it should be fine.

[Derrick]

Frank,

If you really want to get a new PC and you only use it for BLS, this hurts to even say it, get a Dell**. For less that $400 you can get a PC that is lightyears ahead of your 4½ year old system, and it comes with a 15" LCD, keyboard, mouse, and OS. You could easily spend $400 on a new motherboard, processor, and memory and then still have to build that into your old case with older parts.

If you really only use it for BLS, one might question why you feel the need for a new one? Assuming the Dell route, and full purchase price of BLS basic, you now have $519 invested just to use BLS. But, if you have the itch and some disposable cash, I still recomend the *shutter* Dell**.

Myself, I am waiting for the final release of Vista to build my new PC. Although my 3 year old build is quite capable of running it, I am using Vista as an excuse to build a new one. It is likely to have Asus, Intel, ATI, Seagate, inside as do almost all of my PCs. I haven't found a favorite brand of memory yet, but I usually go with a name brand's 'value' line, such as Kingston or Corsair. As with Lance, I have nothing but good things to say about NewEgg.

Let us know what you do.








**I have used Dell's for both personal (laptops) and work (desktops) and have never had problems with them. However, I am called upon quite frequently to 'fix' Dell PCs of other users. Mostly it is user error causing the problems. I feel that a Dell computer in competent hands is a stable system. But if left alone with ignorance they are disasters waiting to happen. But that could be said of most eletronic devices.

[Frank Goebel]

Lance & Derrick, thanks for the responses. And no, I'm not taking the mentioning of any brands of any products or vendors as endorsements or impunity...neither do I mention names for the same reasons, just as examples.

I went through Tiger Direct in 2002 for the Barebone kit, they don't carry Soyo anymore and to find a processor for my MoBo - forget it. (I was hoping to keep it as simple as that). They too handled a defect well; the 2002 board was bad and fried the CPU on the first power-up, so I had to send back everything...tower and all. The kit came without any RAM or HDs.

Tiger does offer MoBo/CPU combos (something I didn't see at NewEgg, but I can still research their prices on the same items), so I looked at the most popular Gigabyte (that Lance mentioned). The package is $100, that particular one doesn't have PCI express, but does have AGP...I would think either would be a future enhancement. The MoBo alone is $54 and the CPU goes for $60...the latter being an Intel Celeron D 352 3.20 GHz. The bus speeds for those are 533 MHz, with 500 series Intels at 800 MHz, close to the price you mention...would that bus speed really make so noticeable an improvement?

I personally don't need a new HD now, XP is running fine on the 30 GB that I have, though I suppose for Vista I could opt for a newer one, and put that on the SATA channel. The DVD/ROM and HD are both masters on the parallel ATA channels.

Tiger does require the purchse of a heat sink and fan with any CPU purchase or there's no warranty, but that's not a big expense at all. Having put together the original, I know the drill on that.

Now, the responses did include looking at a Dell or Gateway package. Seriously though, I already have a tower that I have no discomfort opening, an installed operating system, and I just wish some of the more tedious tasks of BLS to operate faster...like advancing back to the current week after going back to week 1 for a small correction. But, I do have other plans for the computer.

To get off-topic briefly, my ideal goal is to get an Intel Mac to run XP (or Vista?) for BLS over the summer for next season, and drop the tower altogether...giving the tower to my parents as a gift for all the support they're giving me through my disability, to replace their very old Dell running Win 98. The notion of having it being further upgradeable would be to enhance it further...perhaps in addition to a new SATA drive to run Vista, but perhaps an AGP (or PCI) card that can function as a tuner and with that, use the computer to act like a VCR with the only moving part being the hard drive. The nice part about doing an upgrade like that would mean I wouldn't have to specify all of that when ordering a package from a major manufacturer, but I'd be able to add those things later on, on my own accord, and not have to worry about warranties.

So, there you have it...for now. I've ordered nothing yet, I invite further comments, and I will explore NewEgg. Lance, if you would like to take a look at the board combination that I mentioned, it's a Gigabyte 8I865GME-775. At $100, plus $100 or so for a 1GB DDR DIMM (I had already settled on 1GB RAM), I'd be spending about $250 after taxes and shipping, and have the ability to upgrade further if desired.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Frank,

I would tend to shy away from AGP only because AGP is pretty much dead now and has been replaced by PCI Express. If you are planning to go Vista at some point with the hardware, I would strongly lean towards PCI Express.

The cool interface (Aero) is dependant on a Video card with 256 megs of Video RAM. So keep that in mind. Is it critical to have? No... But it is cool.

The board you mention is good, with the exception of AGP and it doesn't have an onboard NIC, which means you would either need to use one of the PCI slots for a $20-$30 NIC or use a USB NIC.

Regarding Fans.... yep. Thats a biggie. Some newbies don't think fans or other heat disapation is necessary.... (yet... they do understand that it's "kinda" important to put a radiator in a Shelby Mustang.... Go figure).

30 Gigs for HD would "work" but you would be pushing it. Spend $70-100 if possible on a 80-200 gig drive. I would have to check my laptop, but I think my base Vista Ultimate install is running around 10-15 megs.

[Frank Goebel]

Thank you for the heads-up on the PCI express being newer than AGP. (I wouldn't have considered, otherwise). Here I was thinking otherwise. Given that the add-ons for video won't come until later, the choice I make in that department will be quite important.

Any install of Vista would go onto a new, much larger HDD. The current HDD with Win xp and BLS is only 20 GB, now that I look at it (where did I get the idea it was 30?) but it has well over 2/3 of its space free just the same. So, a new HDD doesn't come into play until Vista's there. (I guess I'll spend more on Vista than on the drive on which to install it!)

Honestly, I've never seen the acronym "NIC" but I've discerned it to refer to video (somehow). I'll have to do a bit more looking for on-board, or opt for a card. But, given that I wouldn't need, for example, the Ethernet card, there's room. Also, it's entirely possible that a tuner card might require NIC to be on PCI and not on-board, there might lie where I'll be going.

I'm not in any rush for any ordering, yet....

[Lance Rasmussen]

NIC - Network Interface Card. I.E. Ethernet Card.

Nowadays, its pretty much as must. If you plan to do wireless, that is a different story.

Vista (at least the Ultimate edition) is pricey. And apparently there is some news pertaining to new user agreements / licensing that has changed for Vista.

Since Vista has not been RTM'd yet, its not "in stone" but....

You now have to decide what "device" Vista will be installed on. Once installed and activated.... you will be allowed to either move the Vista OS to a new computer or transfer the license to another person.......... ONCE.

So... you build a machine. Put Vista on it. Months from now, you decide to build a new machine. You can transfer the OS to the new machine. If the new machine dies or you build another machine.... You must buy a new Vista license.

With XP, if you received the OS with your new machine (OEM license), if the machine dies, so does the license. The license stays, essentially, with the Motherboard. But if you buy the Retail license... you can move the OS from machine to machine (just not running the same license on multiple machines).

So... will be interesting if this comes to light. There are a lot of stricter licensing practices that have been taken to court and have never been overturned. SAS, which is a big specialized corporate software package.... Its licensed annually. If you don't renew... your license dies and so does the operation of the software.

[Frank Goebel]

Wow, talk about restrictions on a license. I can't see using the highest version of Vista, but I'm still wondering if there's an upgrade price available as there was for XP.

NIC - thanks for that info, as it turns out I already have a card that I installed...Ethernet. I thought the RJ-45 port was that very same thing, and detailed specs on that board mention LAN type to be 10/100 Mbps...that sounds like Ethernet to me, though the term "NIC" wasn't mentioned by name. I do have a wireless card that's not installed.

Either way, I'm covered for Ethernet, but again, the preference to use PCI Express over AGP would have me going to a different board anyway.

I'm still in awe over the licensing of Vista. I'm guessing that if I change to a second new motherboard, that would de-activate Vista, even if already installed an activated on a hard drive? But, I could do a new install on a new hard drive on the same motherboard, without a problem. As you word it though, since my XP is retail, installing the new motherboard won't affect it at all.

Don't bother trying to digest that last part

[Lance Rasmussen]

XP / Vista activation looks at a combination of things such as RAM, Hard Drives, Motherboard, Network Cards and Processors. If you add a new hard drive, it may not cross the threshold for the OS to reactivate. You do too many changes, you will need to reactivate.

In terms of activating on a drive and moving the drive... no dice there. My belief is that the change in Motherboard will mt likely be the main trigger.

I'm sure its possible to maybee explain the situation and they will allow reactivation. However... Having the same hard drive and different RAM, Proc, NIC and Mobo.... Thats a new machine in most eyes.. Welcome to hell.

[Lance Rasmussen]

XP / Vista activation looks at a combination of things such as RAM, Hard Drives, Motherboard, Network Cards and Processors. If you add a new hard drive, it may not cross the threshold for the OS to reactivate. You do too many changes, you will need to reactivate.

In terms of activating on a drive and moving the drive... no dice there. My belief is that the change in Motherboard will mt likely be the main trigger.

I'm sure its possible to maybee explain the situation and they will allow reactivation. However... Having the same hard drive and different RAM, Proc, NIC and Mobo.... Thats a new machine in most eyes.. Welcome to hell.

[Derrick]

No time to add anything of value to this post, but, I can't pass up the oportunity to comment on this.

So... you build a machine. Put Vista on it. Months from now, you decide to build a new machine. You can transfer the OS to the new machine. If the new machine dies or you build another machine.... You must buy a new Vista license.

I know it isn't retail yet, but assuming this is the end result....


Microsoft may have the money to settle all the law suits, and may have the patience to handle all the support calls, but will they be able to accept the fact that their pirated software just went up 100x? Seriously, what home builder will pay for a licence that works this way? And no matter what security measures Microsoft puts into it's software, there are enough people eager and willing to crack it.

While my personal philosophy isn't altogether a correct way of thinking about things, but since I use my OS EVERYDAY, I do not mind paying for it. But if MS wants me to buy several licences becuase I like to build new PCs often, forget it.

If Chrysler sold me my Dodge truck and asked me what garage I parked it in, and told me that if I buy a new house and park the truck in another garage I would have to buy a new truck and the old one would stop working, well, I'd by a Chevy. Or, get an aftermarket part that allowed my truck to run even after I was parking it in a new garage.

I would imagine that in the end Vista will be hardware bound activated just like XP, but possibly with different parameters.

More from me tomorrow.

DC

[Frank Goebel]

If Chrysler sold me my Dodge truck and asked me what garage I parked it in, and told me that if I buy a new house and park the truck in another garage I would have to buy a new truck and the old one would stop working, well, I'd by a Chevy. Or, get an aftermarket part that allowed my truck to run even after I was parking it in a new garage.

The Dodge would also crash unexpectedly.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Derrick,

No arguments from me there. Do you think our BLS secretaries would "appreciate" us saying you can install the software on one computer, but you can only transfer it to another secretary once or move it to another computer once. Then any more than that, charge you for another license.... I think we would have a major problem.

Like you, I work with a lot of computers. And I have no problems legitimately paying for each computer to have its own license of Windows.... It's..... like..... the legal thing to do, right???

I don't see any legal problems for any company who wants to do this.... providing the license is clear about this. Its the common sense scenerio behind this potential license that I have a problem with. My computer can die... once. Then I'm toast. If it was the $100 Vista Home edition... I wouldn't be happy, but that only hurts so much. But Vista Ultimate at a $400 plus price tag... Ahhhh no...

As you said. The incentive for the "creative" minds in working around the software for illegal purposes will be very very high. But keep in mind that Vista's and soon other M$ products will be very much tied to authentic licenses to be able to obtain updates and certain features. Unless (which is possible) you use a legit computer do manually download patches, SP's, etc to copy over to a non-legit computer and that the patches/SP's don't compliancy check the software... Then maybee ok.

Oh Well. We will see.

[Frank Goebel]

Here's a tentative order, settling on AMD because that's the processor I found bundled with boards that had PCI express. To go with an Intel would have had the MoBo package upwards of $400. With that, I invite your comments.

I have for a Mobo: Asus A8N-VM NVIDIA Socket 939, the bundle includes an AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0 GHz processor.

Nothing's been ordered yet, but the cart already has 1 GB of RAM and a heat sink/fan...on that last item, I went top of the line. After rebates though, I'd be under $300 in all. I can't complain.

[Frank Goebel]

As if I couldn't come up with something else to ask about....well, I have.

I'm now wondering if my current hard drive would be compatible with the IDE controller on the Mobo.

The board I have "in the cart" supports "Ultra DMA 33/66/100/133".
The board in the tower right now supports "up to PIO mode 4 and Ultra DMA 66".
The HDD has several data transfer rates (for various modes), which (and I will list them all:
100 MB/s (Mode 5 Ultra ATA)
66.6 MB/s (Mode 4 Ultra ATA)
33.3 MB/s (Mode 2 Ultra ATA)
16.6 MB/s (Mode 4 PIO)
16.6 MH/s (Mode 2 multi-word DMA)

So, I'm wondering if the drive, having what I'm guessing to be a slower data transfer rate, would still work with the board...or if there has to be a match. Put another way, I'm wondering if a drive that's slower would work where a drive that's too fast wouldn't...or, vice versa. This is yet another burning question. Again, I'm not in a hurry to order anything.

[Lance Rasmussen]

You shouldn't have a problem, however PATA hard drives are becoming more and more pushed away for the new SATA drives.

[Derrick]

It will be compatible Frank. Not as speedy as the newer SATA HDDs, but no slower than you use now.

[Frank Goebel]

Thank you for the responses. I'm fully aware of SATA...the big thing (for the short term) is how I have my WinXP (and BLS) installs on my drive, but don't need any more space.

When I pass the machine on to my parents next summer, I'll add to it a large SATA drive on which would go Vista, in addition to an actual video card. I'm gathering even at a Vista upgrade price, I could spend less for a 250GB drive.

In perspective: My first Mac came with 4MB RAM, 80MB SCSI HDD. I purchased an external HDD later for about $350. The capacity? 512 MB. (I jokingly called it 1/2 GB....)