New USBC Prebowl/Post Bowl Change

[Leslie Kidwell]

I just got word of this. What does anyone think of this??

The United States Bowling Congress will no longer issue high score
awards for scores rolled during unopposed bowling sessions effective
immediately and will be enforced for the 2006-07 season.

The following USBC High Score awards will not be offered if rolled in unopposed pre- or post-bowled sessions:

11 strikes in a row
298, 299 and 300 games
800-900 three-game series
National high series
National team high game
National team high series
Baker 300 game
Merit awardsHigh Score awards will still be issued to teams that pre- or post-bowl their head-to-head matches.

I think this may have been pushed through with the advent of the one person who supposedly bowled several 900 series during makeup or prebowls. Do you think this is fair tho?

[Larry Zaideman]

I don't have no problem with this new ruling, because they are bowling on a total different condition then the rest of the league (slow bowlers, oil carry down ect.)

[John Lorenzo]

It doesn't bother me that much, like Larry, but I do agree it was probably brought about by that string of 900s by that youth bowler.

[Bobby J.]

Just checked Bowl.com and there is no new Pre-bowl rule change that i see...

www.bowl.com/Downloads/pdf/rules/06_legislativeUpdate.pdf

although i have no problem with not giving awards for pre-bowls...

[Lance Rasmussen]

It was on their front page, but has been replaced by other articles.

The Board adopted an interim change to Rule 111f, Item 8, Procedure for Prebowl.

The link is here: http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=12085&f=1

[harold wood]

:) I Agree 100% On This Ruling. It's A Team Sport Of Head To Head Compitition And Should Be Scored As Such. If You Can't Make The Date , Get A Sub.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Without injecting my own personal opinion, I would like to expound on this a little.....

Is this fair to youth bowlers or bowling centers trying to build up an maintain a strong youth program where the only way they can accomodate the hectic schedules with kids and soccer, football, basketball, little league as well as work for older youth?

In many cases, centers have no choice but to make sure that the youth leagues allow individuals to come in and make up when they can.

[harold wood]

If Joining A League, You Should Be Dedicated To That Sport. If Other Sports Or Functions Interfer Then Chose One Or The Other. All Functions Will Suffer From This. Don't Get Them Run Over With All This. It Only Sets Bad Goals In The Long Run.

[Tom Kelly]

I am all for this change, but the question that comes to mind is what about the team that was suppose to bowl the team that pre or post bowled.The team that was to bowl the pre bowled team bowl on the scheduled night with the league are they entitled to all awards earned?

[Lance Rasmussen]

Tom,
thats a good point. From what I interpret, I believe any team bowling during normal league times is ok opposed or unopposed. I think this only refers to teams who are pre/post bowling unopposed.

[Angel Zobel-Rodriguez]

Lance,

As one of the youth coordinators that is heavily affected by this, it's not just kids sports. In my program directly, I have at least 6 bowlers that are in the middle of very difficult (even sometimes ugly) custody arrangements. Mom might say it's ok to bowl on her weekends, but Dad lives far enough away it's not feasible (or is just a big enough "axis" that he refuses to allow "his" weekends to be dictated).

Thankfully the average-based awards are not being discontinued. So the first 100 game, the first 400 series, an all spare game--none of those will be lost. Unfortunately if any of the high average kids have parents that can't get their acts straight, they will suffer. At this point, none of my kids in that situation are that close to shooting rings, but I'm sure those situations exist.

[Keith Chambers]

The rule only applies to UNOPPOSED prebowl or postponements; it does not affect the teams bowling unopposed during a regular league session, whether it is a result of a postponed match or a league with a vacant team.
If you remember, up until only recently awards were not recognized for any prebowl or postponed games. The change was made at the request of the ABC delegates.
With regards to "pick one sport or the other" comment - that is exactly the attitude that has youth bowling on the downward trend. We have instituted short seasons, after school leagues, and more Adult/Youth leagues to keep the "athletes" in the sport, but we still see several requests for pre-bowl/postponements every week. People are just busy! If you force them to choose "one or the other", bowling will lose out.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Keith,

I assume you mean USBC delegate changes.

I think Angel pointed out where I see where repurcussions are felt from this ruling.

When things become out of the hands of the youth bowler from attending the normal league session. They can be dedicated to the sport, but when alternating weekends with parents, what can they do? Granted, both teams could try to accomodate, but its doubtful that that can happen due to schedules of everyone involved.

I think the main cause of this ruling though is understandable. Is it really fair for a person to bowl on conditions that are not the same for the league who bowled during the normal time and earn those awards? I personally don't think so. You could add a preface to the rule that says the center must lay out a condition identical to the league condition, but you can't expect the centers to comply because of extra costs involved, plus it really can never be the same condition, because you have condition break down during league night with several people bowling on a lane, that a single person would not experience the same condition break down.

Think about this, though. Would it be fair to ammend this rule to state that if a person/team bowls unopposed during the same time as another certified league on lanes that have been conditioned the same, it would be allowed?

[Angel Zobel-Rodriguez]

I don't really have an answer as to what's fair. At my center, makeups and prebowls are bowled during open play--often when the lanes have not been oiled for 24 hours, or on the weekends, it can be 48 hours between lane dressings. The scores coming out of the makeups and prebowls are usually significantly lower--lower than had the team taken the less 10.

As a coordinator, I never have trouble coming down just to watch a makeup/prebowl. Or if I can't be there, my center has phenomenal desk people that will keep an eye out.

I completely understand the absurdity that went into this ruling, but I feel badly for those who will suffer (and never shot a phantom 900). I don't know what the "best" or "right answer is, but I know when you make bowling too difficult, you lose bowlers.

When they have the options of doing the school play, playing club baseball, spending four weeks building houses in a foreign country, adhering to the "make a commitment and stick with it" mentality is going to be a loss for bowling. We're trying to create people who play this sport for a lifetime, not prove who can shame or strong arm someone into bowling over the other choices in life.

[Bob Lanouette]

Angel, I totally agree with your comments about accommodating youth today, with all the school activities and family situations. Fortunately for me, I don't have to 'be there' when prebowls occur. With electronic scoring, the desk people simply print out a copy of the games bowled and attach to the handwritten score sheet. Only rule is, you 'pay when you play'. The center is very cooperative on this point. My general philosophy is that kids often don't have control of their own schedule and/or transportation. To keep our youth programs alive, we have to adapt. As you said, kids get only one shot at school activities/sports; bowling is a sport they can continue to play for life. It's the beauty of the game; it needs no special talent to be enjoyed.

[Mark Firkus]

I agree with all this too... but have a question, that I am not sure has been addressed yet... If you have 2 teams pre/post bowling at the same time that were NOT scheduled head-to-head, if they bowled on the same pair during the pre/post would their scores count, if an honor score happened?


(note..not yet a registered CDE, but the transfer paper is on the way)

[Lance Rasmussen]

If you have 2 teams pre/post bowling at the same time that were NOT scheduled head-to-head, if they bowled on the same pair during the pre/post would their scores count, if an honor score happened?


Thats a pretty good question. I haven't seen that addressed. You may want to contact the USBC rules committee (I wouldn't suggest local associations as this rule is pretty new.

Please post your findings if anyone clarifies that point.

[Robert Maes]

My understanding is that the teams would still be bowling unapposed, as the other team would only act as a witness the same as a league officer being present neither which qualifies for awards.
This solution is still better than allowing single unwitnessed bowlers from claiming honor scores.
The bigger crime is that youth bowlers will no longer be allowed to the same or similar awards as adult bowlers(rings,watches) when bowling honor scores.

I am in Michigan and our High School Athletic Assoc. has determined that youth bowlers can not bowl in any other organized league during high school bowling. This hurts the youth leagues and also the high schoolers who participate. The biggest wrong that is condoned is that the youth are forced to withdraw from a league with certified coaches to bowl for their high school where the "coach" isn't required to even know what a bowling ball looks like.

[Amos E. Garnto]

This thread seemed to start out announcing a new ruling by USBC which I interpreted to include all bowlers/leagues that are sanctioned with USBC. It soon drifted and migrated to discussions about youth bowling. While I have no affiliation with youth bowling, I have nothing against it either Youth bowling should be encouraged; otherwise, where do the adult bowlers come from? But let's stick to the intent of the thread. My leagues are within the military community and if anyone has experience in that arena, they know that military duties take precedence over bowling or any other sport. This makes it necessary for us to allow some pre and post bowling. Having said this, I do notice the scores bowled in pre or post situations tend to be higher than the bowlers average in majority of the cases. I don't think bowlers should be penalized because they "must" do a pre or post bowl. In order to get as many teams as possible, we include bowlers that are subject to deployment on a moments notice. Many spouses only bowl because their wife/husband is also bowling. When the wife/husband is deployed, the spouse finds it difficult to bowl, due to child care, transportation, etc. Consequently, we wind up with a lot of blinds and a few forfeits. Now to get off my soap box and tell you exactly how I feel:
I think pre bowling should be totally eliminated unless both teams can agree to bowl together. Post bowling should only be recognized where a bonafide, verified, emergency has been declared. In both of these situations, all awards that are earned should be given.
All other situations, like someone already mentioned, get a sub, add additional members to your team, use a blind, etc.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Amos,

you are correct. This rule affects USBC as a whole. I think the greatest impact felt will be in the youth bowling community, but you do bring up a completely different sector that hasn't really been mentioned... Military bowlers...

[Keith Chambers]

The rule change is "temporary" and will be subject to the approval of the USBC Delegates that attend the next Annual Meeting in Nashville. If there is as much interest in this topic there as there is on this thread, then the change should be reversed at that time.
The question not asked - how many other "honor scores" have been earned during unopposed bowling? The 3 900's have gotten all of the attention, but have there been a lot of honor scores? What is the real impact of this rule change?
In the military community, prebowls and postponements are a fact of life and have been for many, many years. Different areas handle them differently, but they are usually not a big deal. In my three decades of military service I can not recall any honor scores being shot during a prebowl or postponement. Of course the scores are far more common now than they were as little as 10 years ago, so the situation may be different now than when I was still on active duty.
The conflict tends to come when the military and civilian communities are intermixed, as it is here in San Diego, and leagues expect bowlers to show up every week, or send a sub; but when a team can not field a legal lineup for reasons beyond their control (the ship did not return to port as scheduled) they must be granted a postponement. This rule change does not change that, it only makes the scores ineligible for High Score recognition. As it was for many years before.

[Frank Goebel]

The way I read it, pre- and post-bowling will still be an option for bowlers. It's just that honor scores bowled during that won't be recognized.

It's imperative that secretaries notify bowlers of this new rule.

I'd suggest that a sign be posted at each center's control desk, noting that the pre-bowl scores would count towards averages, team competition, and other "minor" awards, but wouldn't be allowed for those "honor" awards. Someone pre-bowling would do so with the full knowledge of this.

This comes from a bowler whose only 300 was a pre-bowl; I had a last-minute meeting I could not get out of and the league allowed one pre-bowl per season (in 1999). I otherwise had perfect attendance in that league.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Frank,

you may want to check the legality of limiting the prebowling. I know that one excuse that overrides any rule is going to nationals, either as a prebowl or makeup.

I do know that the league can "make things difficult" in terms of prebowl / makeup. I.E. You can vote to not allow unoposed bowling for makeup / prebowl (which would, as a new side effect, now allow the bowlers to get honor scores) and you can vote to only allow prebowling/makeup as a team.

Essentially, if (providing enough time) a team needs to makeup or prebowl, the two teams have an alloted time to pick a date and time. If neither team can agree, then the board will set the date and time... Which if a team can't make it, its a forfeit.

This had been with verbal communication with a couple rules counselors a couple years ago, so I don't have it in writing. So you may want to check..... (twice)

[Keith Chambers]

The answers and explanations to all of the above questions and situations are found in the FAQ's following the announcement of the new rule on bowl.com. It might be a good idea to print the information and carry it with you to the center.
It should be required reading for all Association Managers and League Officers.

[Frank Goebel]

you may want to check the legality of limiting the prebowling. I know that one excuse that overrides any rule is going to nationals, either as a prebowl or makeup.



The rule limiting one pre-bowl per bowler per season was league-specific and was for a Men's ABC-sanctioned league that has since dissolved and merged into the league in which I now bowl (and of which I am secretary)...which doesn't allow pre-bowls at all.

[Lance Rasmussen]

Frank,

you "should" be ok with that rule, however, you should ammend the rule so it doesn't conflict with USBC rules which provides the exception of bowling USBC Mens and Womens National Tournaments (May need to check on Mixed).

I speak from experience on that, when I took over a league a few years ago that prohibited makeups or prebowls. The rule had not exceptions, and just said they were both prohibited. I called the rules conselors and they said our league bylaws were "illegal" based on that rule. We had to either add the statement "except when bowling the ABC or WIBC National Tournament" or say "except when ABC / WIBC rules permit otherwise".

[Douglas Moye]

Just fot into this forum, so will try to catch up all at once :-)

a no postponement rule is illegal per USBC rule 111c

now for the honor score situation.

A few years ago, legislation was presented to allow prebowls and postponements to qualify for awards. Obviously there was a lot of discussion on this. pros and cons.

conditions not the same(they differ pair to pair anyway within a house)
pressure not the same when unopposed as when in a league setting(debatable for sure)
speed of bowling not the same as in a league (true)
conditions don't change as fast or as much as in a league setting(may or may not be true)
etc.etc
in a league setting you do have teams that bowl unopposed from time to time, what about those?
etc,etc.

At the time. it was felt(since it passed) that the players were members, were in effect bowling competively (open for interpretation) and that if bowling unopposed in a league setting were allowed so then should it be allowed otherwise. The members should not be penalized.

Because of the 900s, that were supposedly shot by an individual bowling single, unopposed, unsupervised, AND in a DIFFERENT house than the league bowls in, ceated a situation that was technically NOT covered so they had no option but to honor the scores (as per existing rules).

At this years convention, there was legislation proposed that would not allow recognistion of scores bowl in UNOPPOSED prebowls and postponements. It would only cover pre and post bowls that were unopposed.

Again there was a lot of discussion of the pros and cons. Obviously it was brought forward because of a problem situation that came up (those 900s) and to remedy that type of problem.

It was tabled and for 1 year and is to be addressed again at the next convention in Nashville.

The Board obviously wanted this legislation to pass and the delegates obviously were torn with the proposal at it was presented.

I think there will be new legislation(reworded) submitted this year to address the situation.

The obvious solution to me would be to go back into yesteryear somewhat and put back in where pre bowls and post bowls must have a league officer OR designated representative present, otherwise the scores would NOT be eligible for awards.

This would cover having the scores be eligible (if conditions were met) and still leave the post/prebowls available for all those situations that crop up within the different league structures. the members would NOT be penalized unless the league failed in is duty to have an observer present.